The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Clarissa F]

I would rather just see the skills eliminated, left to just the quest in which they are involved. Same for all the Dwarven Boxing skills, etc. I think that if it isn't part pf your primary or secondary, they shouldn't put it in your bar.

Of course, Anet has to make money, and they do that by selling games. Who cares if they screw it in the long run? They'll keep the "special" players in the game with Ursanway, etc.

-try to please everyone, and you end up pleasing no one-

[Karyuu]

Except, of course, those who are pleased. I didn't realize we are "no one" in your world :]

[tmakinen]

All those that prefer the FOTM modus operandi on these forums, i.e., read the first word of a post, misinterpret it, then launch a volley of ad hominem attacks, please skip what I'm going to say next

How does the bear (and its lesser cousins the cub and the slightly savage chicken) fit the design criteria of ANet

The 'skill over time' mantra has been recited very often to claim that UB is a diversion from what Guild Wars was supposed to be all about. However, this is more pertinent on the PvP side. On the PvE side it meant that after a very modest effort everybody was on equal footing what comes to equipment and (in-game, not gaming) skills, and that your success did not depend on endless grind of levels, equipment or consumables. Some people have interpreted the mantra as that you're supposed to hone your gaming skills to highest levels to gain access to elite content and all the phat loot. In fact the exact opposite is true. This game was specifically designed to be casual-friendly and this is what sets it apart from all the other MMORPGs. ANet wanted that if you play for a while, then take a break for a couple of months and come back, you're still on equal footing with other players that have been playing daily the whole time. Compare this to other games like WoW where the whole point of the treadmill is that if you lag behind your group by more than a couple of levels, you become a liability instead of an asset.

Now, if you want to support grouping of casual players, what are the main problems they face?

* a casual player may lack several key (in-game) skills and worse, doesn't even know which ones they are
* a casual player is less likely to have a character that fits in 'trinity' or whatever PUGs demand
* a casual player may have a shallow understanding of in-game mechanics

Enter the bear, and all those concerns are addressed. It is the short bus version of GW, and that's the whole point. It's entirely unrealistic to assume that a majority of players would want to spend hundreds of hours learning the intricacies of a very complex game, although the option is available to those that want to meet that challenge. Stop QQing about how GW was supposed to be played this way or that way. GW is supposed to make money. If it has a 'lite' mode for those who just want to smash face without learning anything in particular, it will make more money because otherwise those players wouldn't even have purchased the game. Next time when you feel like gnashing your teeth at some scrub nobodies that are going on a bear rampage remember that their money is helping to keep this game alive just as much as yours is.

Also, UB is not 'grindy'. You can obtain it in a couple of hours of GW:EN playing and it's totally feasible out of the box since the progress is pretty shallow.

Ok, time to put on my flame-proof spectacles ...

[Angelic Upstart]

Fixed.

PvE skills are a degradation of the concept of Guild Wars. The support of players who want things handed to them helps drive the shift from skill to grind. Why should I have to play the way you want because you're lazy?

I want Guild Wars back.

QFT

Signed /

[Crom The Pale]

Originally Posted by tmakinen

All those that prefer the FOTM modus operandi on these forums, i.e., read the first word of a post, misinterpret it, then launch a volley of ad hominem attacks, please skip what I'm going to say next

How does the bear (and its lesser cousins the cub and the slightly savage chicken) fit the design criteria of ANet

The 'skill over time' mantra has been recited very often to claim that UB is a diversion from what Guild Wars was supposed to be all about. However, this is more pertinent on the PvP side. On the PvE side it meant that after a very modest effort everybody was on equal footing what comes to equipment and (in-game, not gaming) skills, and that your success did not depend on endless grind of levels, equipment or consumables. Some people have interpreted the mantra as that you're supposed to hone your gaming skills to highest levels to gain access to elite content and all the phat loot. In fact the exact opposite is true. This game was specifically designed to be casual-friendly and this is what sets it apart from all the other MMORPGs. ANet wanted that if you play for a while, then take a break for a couple of months and come back, you're still on equal footing with other players that have been playing daily the whole time. Compare this to other games like WoW where the whole point of the treadmill is that if you lag behind your group by more than a couple of levels, you become a liability instead of an asset.

Now, if you want to support grouping of casual players, what are the main problems they face?

* a casual player may lack several key (in-game) skills and worse, doesn't even know which ones they are
* a casual player is less likely to have a character that fits in 'trinity' or whatever PUGs demand
* a casual player may have a shallow understanding of in-game mechanics

Enter the bear, and all those concerns are addressed. It is the short bus version of GW, and that's the whole point. It's entirely unrealistic to assume that a majority of players would want to spend hundreds of hours learning the intricacies of a very complex game, although the option is available to those that want to meet that challenge. Stop QQing about how GW was supposed to be played this way or that way. GW is supposed to make money. If it has a 'lite' mode for those who just want to smash face without learning anything in particular, it will make more money because otherwise those players wouldn't even have purchased the game. Next time when you feel like gnashing your teeth at some scrub nobodies that are going on a bear rampage remember that their money is helping to keep this game alive just as much as yours is.

Also, UB is not 'grindy'. You can obtain it in a couple of hours of GW:EN playing and it's totally feasible out of the box since the progress is pretty shallow.

Ok, time to put on my flame-proof spectacles ...

I'll add a coat of asbestos to protect you, this has been one of the best posts on this subject since this thread was started.


Anet created this skill and Anet will decide its fate.

[pumpkin pie]

instead of trying to make Ursan Blessing useless,

why not make a build that can kill the ursan blessing build :P and stop whining.

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The 'skill over time' mantra has been recited very often to claim that UB is a diversion from what Guild Wars was supposed to be all about. However, this is more pertinent on the PvP side. On the PvE side it meant that after a very modest effort everybody was on equal footing what comes to equipment and (in-game, not gaming) skills, and that your success did not depend on endless grind of levels, equipment or consumables. Some people have interpreted the mantra as that you're supposed to hone your gaming skills to highest levels to gain access to elite content and all the phat loot. In fact the exact opposite is true. This game was specifically designed to be casual-friendly and this is what sets it apart from all the other MMORPGs. ANet wanted that if you play for a while, then take a break for a couple of months and come back, you're still on equal footing with other players that have been playing daily the whole time. Compare this to other games like WoW where the whole point of the treadmill is that if you lag behind your group by more than a couple of levels, you become a liability instead of an asset.

First, main developer motivation for fair access to armour/weapons/skill was so that PvP wouldnt be instantly killed by grind. Equal footing in PvE world was only awesome sideeffect.

Where you start being wrong is that "casuall" player was supposed to have fair access to elite content and rewards. Take very good look at UW (and fow) and remeber what it was like in 2005: Death On Arrival, 1k entrance fee and ascended requirement to keep unwothy away. Bad players would be wiped on first monster /been there, seen that/. Deep/Urrgoz are same story, but game was more understood and soon working teambuilds emerged.

You see, since begining, game was supposed to have hardocre content that bad player would be locked from by their inability to play well. Your point would be valid if there was some kind of easy mode UW since begining.

Your seccond mistake is that you equal casuall = bad player.

Game is designed to be casuall/newbie friendly, not noob friendly. Thats, casuall player with talent would be able to do elite content, because grind would not stop him from doing it. On the other hand, really bad player even with tons of time and wiki knowledge would never be able to do elite content.

BTW: Explain Hard Mode /before consumables/ and your theory that "Casualls" should be able to do everything.

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Now, if you want to support grouping of casual players, what are the main problems they face?

* a casual player may lack several key (in-game) skills and worse, doesn't even know which ones they are
* a casual player is less likely to have a character that fits in 'trinity' or whatever PUGs demand
* a casual player may have a shallow understanding of in-game mechanics

No, the only problem they face is:

* a bad player wants to achieve same thing as all the cool kids.

Why? becuase your careless "Casual" wont even think about doing high end stuff, because he would not know about it.

How the hell is casuall player supposed to stumble upon DoA/Deep/Urgoz? No, he would not be there LFGing to begin with, because he wouldnt know they exist.

How do i know it? I joined couple (12) of ursan groups in DoA to experience it for myself, here are statistics:

* smallest observed LB rank: 4
* smallest observed Norn rank: 5
* Average amount of FoW armors (not counting myself): 3 people per group
* Average amount of 15K armors: Rest of what is not FoW /yes, i didnt notice 1.5k armor there/
* At least three 100k+ectoes weapons seen equiped per run
* Consumables per run estimated to cost donor ~5k

They are not "Casualls" that need helping hand, they are simply bad players who have enough willpower to grind to get "easy mode".

Normal node storyline and quests are what this game offers to casuall players, and it is more than enough.

---

Do you really think that Timmy, the "casuall" player would be out there abusing UB? How the hell is he supposed to know about it being imba. Most people who have little understanding of game jsut stick to one build thatworks for them and dont look for alternatives.

[Marcus Ferret]

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I agree with you that entitlement of learning the game fundamentals is needed, otherwise some meanings to challenge one's self will be lost. However, in saying this, I find that everyone has a different standard to what an entitlement is. What troubles me about these UB threads is that there are always people who try to force their standards on other people. Although it is best to determine the equilibrium standard to what an entitlement is to please both parties, not much progress has been made to this point.

Secondly, I have to admit that learning the fundamentals should be mandatory to the game. Nevetheless, Ursan Blessing is not the only factor that limits the learning of the players. There are usually an experienced player among every pick up groups, and this player will usually instruct other players what to do. Hence, the other party members will just depend on this experienced player and wing the quest/mission. I guess some people do manage to learn that way, but what I'm trying to say is, learning the fundamentals will not be affected by a single skill, but it is truly affected by the players themselves. Relevantly, there is not much we can do about players themselves.

Like you said, Ursan Blessing is part of the Norn skill, but more closely, it is really a demo to their bear forms. Since new races are not avaliable in the first Guild wars, I can see why Anet decides to put a demo in the game to advertise Norns. Although it is still unknown to what exactly will the bear form behave in Guild Wars 2, we can assume that it will be in Guild Wars 2. I guess Ursan Blessing is really a test to see how the community will react to the future fundamentals of the norn and what possible balances can be made. If it's really overpowered as some of you claimed it to be, it will be nerfed. It is rather pointless to have a second thread made to this topic: I don't see how the designers of Anet will be affected by the same people who are making the same posts.

Hi DivineEnvoy

My apologies for the delayed reply but I prefer to voice my opinions once a day rather than interject a discussion with single lines or remarks.

It is true, and I agree that each and every individual is entitled to pick up a game and decide as to the extent of what they intend to learn from it. First and foremost, we have all been drawn to GW because it is a game, a form of entertainment for leisure that allows for social interaction amongst gamers, and to some, the notion that one has to 'learn from a game' may even be inconceivable. However, although the greater part of learning may come from teaming and picking up skills from other players, the game also requires individual players to learn and progress via the various mechanics of the game.

For instance, we have the tutorial stages in all three campaigns which provide step by step info on how to distribute attribute points, manage a skillbar and choose a secondary that best suits a profession. Between the stages of level 1-15, a player will have the pleasure of running around low level areas in order to experience and experiment with different skill setups. As a player grows in confidence with the mechanics of the game, the process of experimentation increases, and the ability to change secondary profession at a later stage allows for further development of skills and gaming experiences.

We have all been through such stages and I would be surprised if anyone showed up to say that they did not learn anything from their first encounter with the game until they met someone in-game. Furthermore, PvE in GW has evolved in such a way that a player could go through an entire chapter without the need to ever interact with another player (e.g. starting in Elona and continuing through the storyline with heroes and henchmen). However, it would also seem that GW is evolving into a game where tutorials are no longer required. The introduction of tomes allows starter characters to equip elites at level 2. In all honesty, I find nothing wrong with such practises as a player still has to learn how to build around elites and be able to run it well. The introduction of the elite skill Ursan Blessing however, is a different matter...

GW:EN is accessible to level 20 players from all continents and as with all perks introduced for the purposes of creating a 'friendlier' PvE environment, the temptation to use and abuse is there. Hypothetically, players can now get their characters levelled up to 20 and just hop over to GW:EN (if they have the expansion), pick up Ursan after a day of working up to rank 5 or thereabouts, and continue to play through the campaigns, including every single elite mission. This bypasses not only the game mechanics, but most content of the game. There is no longer a need to study and learn the pros and cons of each profession. No longer necessary to learn and adapt to the different areas and foes introduced in the game as a single elite skill which is capable of being adopted by every profession and which is capable of being used to clear elite mission areas in GW, can now be utilised to complete all campaigns sans thought of other aspects of the game.

My initial question still remains, is this what we want? Is this what ANet has in store for us in GW2? As to the latter, only ANet has the right answer and as has been pointed out by my fellow guild member, ANet is a business entity and therefore anything that caters to the majority will generally guarantee continuous income and support. Does this mean that the minority has no say at all in such matters?

Where this issue is concerned, let's just say that the majority are the casual players who have very little playing time to experiment with areas and builds, while the minority are the hardcore players who have taken time and effort to learn and adapt to different areas and situations in-game. UB comes as a true blessing to the casual as areas which were once difficult are now made a lot easier. On the other hand, the minority who have persevered and worked towards learning and creating builds to vanguish such areas may feel that the game is turning into a joke.

There is no right or wrong when such situations arise as both sides are merely consumers with varying styles of play and therefore have valid arguments for how the game should be played and only ANet, holds the key to a solution.

Casual or experienced (or hardcore to some), we all love this game, otherwise we would not be trolling these forums and voicing our opinions. ANet needs both sides in order to guarantee that the standard of their games remain at an equal or higher level than others. Many a players would probably say that if the experienced and hardcore do not like what is happening to the game then don't play it, or better yet leave, find something better to play. I believe some have or will if GW continues to degenerate into single skill play, and to a certain extent, this will affect the general playing community as a whole.

Experienced gamers are generally players with the most playing time as such is required to write up builds, walkthroughs, etc. Most are also very much involved in gaming communities such as GWGuru, GWWiki, Official Wiki, etc. It is such efforts and contributions which provide new players with the basic knowledge and information required to go about completing a mission, area, event, etc.

For those players who have had the privilege of teaming up with an experienced player and been taken through areas and missions but fail to take the initiative to learn anything, or for those who fail to know what the [search box] is for, I can only say... For others who have managed to pick up a few tips and advices (whether in-game or from forums), there is the option of paying it forward by helping others through areas, missions, etc. However, you are right, "there is not much we can do about players themselves" and as I said in my first post, players who do not take the initiative to learn have no one but themselves to blame if they are ignored, rejected or kicked from events, teams or guilds.

GW2 is still at its developing stage and ANet knows that it will need the majority of GW's player base for support. From what I can understand, giving casual gamers UB guarantees that many players will be able to extend and complete their HoMs easily thus increasing the chances of such players purchasing GW2 when it is released. I am not concerned with how players accomplish their titles as I have already capped most of mine and look forward to meeting everyone in GW2 when it is released. In the meantime, I can finish off the remaining titles at leisure while awaiting and playing other MMORPGs. What I am more concerned with is the degradation of a once great game which required some understanding and study of over 1000 skills spread over 10 different professions to a few PvE skills.

[Trub]

Thank you again Marcus, you speak my mind also.
And a well thought out post to you also zwei2stein.
It is also my hope that the use of Ursan will NOT carry over to GW2, or ANYTHING similar for that matter.
Someone made the comment about Diablo2 being the same way...it all started out so nice, until baaaaad things more or less ruined that game.
I came from playing that game, over to GW....
GW was one of the last games available to me, that actually advertised as a challenge of skill>time....all the others offered just weren't as attractive.
For any players that are having that much difficulty acheiving certain goals in the game....read up on the area, discuss the skills used by a friend, guildmate, alliancemate, the skill section here in guru?
Ask for assistance?..Sure, you will run into alot of rude players, but remember..many are 13yr olds and under...but many are not, and many aren't so uncaring.
Thank you.

[Antheus]

It is also my hope that the use of Ursan will NOT carry over to GW2, or ANYTHING similar for that matter.

Yes, it will. In GW2, the PvE will be level based, and identical for all classes. No more team dependency, class roles, or other nonsense. Even skills a class can use will be predefined and pre-balanced. The core concept about why GW2 came to be, is to make sure everyone can grind their way to victory.

Even more - with side-kick system, one high-level character will simply group with "noobs" and bring them through elite areas, simply because their level will be artificially equalized.

GW was aimed at skill - GW2 will fix this problem, and focus on time. Time is what gamers have in abundance.

[Angelic Upstart]

Happened to be in the Temple today, and there were a fair amount of UB parties being called for, not a shed load but a fair amount.
From a personal perspective i prefer to clear the fissure with a five man team sort of old school, but i guess people and human nature are like water, they both seek the path of least resistance.
UB i found interesting for about thirty seconds when i ran through a few barricades up in EoTN other than that it remains unused.

[DivineEnvoy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Ferret

Hi DivineEnvoy

My apologies for the delayed reply but I prefer to voice my opinions once a day rather than interject a discussion with single lines or remarks.

It is true, and I agree that each and every individual is entitled to pick up a game and decide as to the extent of what they intend to learn from it. First and foremost, we have all been drawn to GW because it is a game, a form of entertainment for leisure that allows for social interaction amongst gamers, and to some, the notion that one has to 'learn from a game' may even be inconceivable. However, although the greater part of learning may come from teaming and picking up skills from other players, the game also requires individual players to learn and progress via the various mechanics of the game.

For instance, we have the tutorial stages in all three campaigns which provide step by step info on how to distribute attribute points, manage a skillbar and choose a secondary that best suits a profession. Between the stages of level 1-15, a player will have the pleasure of running around low level areas in order to experience and experiment with different skill setups. As a player grows in confidence with the mechanics of the game, the process of experimentation increases, and the ability to change secondary profession at a later stage allows for further development of skills and gaming experiences.

We have all been through such stages and I would be surprised if anyone showed up to say that they did not learn anything from their first encounter with the game until they met someone in-game. Furthermore, PvE in GW has evolved in such a way that a player could go through an entire chapter without the need to ever interact with another player (e.g. starting in Elona and continuing through the storyline with heroes and henchmen). However, it would also seem that GW is evolving into a game where tutorials are no longer required. The introduction of tomes allows starter characters to equip elites at level 2. In all honesty, I find nothing wrong with such practises as a player still has to learn how to build around elites and be able to run it well. The introduction of the elite skill Ursan Blessing however, is a different matter...

GW:EN is accessible to level 20 players from all continents and as with all perks introduced for the purposes of creating a 'friendlier' PvE environment, the temptation to use and abuse is there. Hypothetically, players can now get their characters levelled up to 20 and just hop over to GW:EN (if they have the expansion), pick up Ursan after a day of working up to rank 5 or thereabouts, and continue to play through the campaigns, including every single elite mission. This bypasses not only the game mechanics, but most content of the game. There is no longer a need to study and learn the pros and cons of each profession. No longer necessary to learn and adapt to the different areas and foes introduced in the game as a single elite skill which is capable of being adopted by every profession and which is capable of being used to clear elite mission areas in GW, can now be utilised to complete all campaigns sans thought of other aspects of the game.

My initial question still remains, is this what we want? Is this what ANet has in store for us in GW2? As to the latter, only ANet has the right answer and as has been pointed out by my fellow guild member, ANet is a business entity and therefore anything that caters to the majority will generally guarantee continuous income and support. Does this mean that the minority has no say at all in such matters?

Where this issue is concerned, let's just say that the majority are the casual players who have very little playing time to experiment with areas and builds, while the minority are the hardcore players who have taken time and effort to learn and adapt to different areas and situations in-game. UB comes as a true blessing to the casual as areas which were once difficult are now made a lot easier. On the other hand, the minority who have persevered and worked towards learning and creating builds to vanguish such areas may feel that the game is turning into a joke.

There is no right or wrong when such situations arise as both sides are merely consumers with varying styles of play and therefore have valid arguments for how the game should be played and only ANet, holds the key to a solution.

Casual or experienced (or hardcore to some), we all love this game, otherwise we would not be trolling these forums and voicing our opinions. ANet needs both sides in order to guarantee that the standard of their games remain at an equal or higher level than others. Many a players would probably say that if the experienced and hardcore do not like what is happening to the game then don't play it, or better yet leave, find something better to play. I believe some have or will if GW continues to degenerate into single skill play, and to a certain extent, this will affect the general playing community as a whole.

Experienced gamers are generally players with the most playing time as such is required to write up builds, walkthroughs, etc. Most are also very much involved in gaming communities such as GWGuru, GWWiki, Official Wiki, etc. It is such efforts and contributions which provide new players with the basic knowledge and information required to go about completing a mission, area, event, etc.

For those players who have had the privilege of teaming up with an experienced player and been taken through areas and missions but fail to take the initiative to learn anything, or for those who fail to know what the [search box] is for, I can only say... For others who have managed to pick up a few tips and advices (whether in-game or from forums), there is the option of paying it forward by helping others through areas, missions, etc. However, you are right, "there is not much we can do about players themselves" and as I said in my first post, players who do not take the initiative to learn have no one but themselves to blame if they are ignored, rejected or kicked from events, teams or guilds.

GW2 is still at its developing stage and ANet knows that it will need the majority of GW's player base for support. From what I can understand, giving casual gamers UB guarantees that many players will be able to extend and complete their HoMs easily thus increasing the chances of such players purchasing GW2 when it is released. I am not concerned with how players accomplish their titles as I have already capped most of mine and look forward to meeting everyone in GW2 when it is released. In the meantime, I can finish off the remaining titles at leisure while awaiting and playing other MMORPGs. What I am more concerned with is the degradation of a once great game which required some understanding and study of over 1000 skills spread over 10 different professions to a few PvE skills.

True, learning the game mechanics is a mandatory task to play the game efficiently. However, the point only remains clear before the introduction of Hard Mode. As many people have said, Hard Mode is supposed to be a part of the game that is supposed to be challenging, and thus skills will be required, but the current situation is different. I am 10/13 on the title track, Guardian of Cantha; I waited with a friend from 8 am in the morning to 3 am after midnight to find more players to do the mission with, but after a few days, I gave up, because we can't find anyone. Now then, many players would argue that the option of heroes and henches is available; nevertheless, when it comes to a mission such as Eternal Grove, a full human team is required. The matter of an area that is supposed to be challenging is not longer a matter of skill, but a matter of luck: to meet another player who has the patience and interest in Hard Mode.

It is true that we all go through a series of tutorial passages, like education, a place where we gain the skills we need for the future. However, my point is, are the skills available from these tutorials really enough? It is for some, but not for others. As more and more so-called experienced players who are interested in Hard Mode have completed their Hard Mode tasks, the number of participants to Hard Mode has met a decline. Like politicians always say, children are the future working class, it is the same for this game, and we need to have a constant number of players going into Hard Mode. Ursan Blessing, in this case, may be a solution to that. However, as many people claimed, it is a negative influence. If Ursan Blessing has to be nerfed, is it possible for us to find another solution to fix the decline number of players in Hard Mode?

If Pve-only skills are the solution to the unavailability of players in Hard Mode, yes, this is what most of us want. However, if this solution has to be taken away from us, and no additional solutions will be provided, then I will be against that idea. I'm not here to argue whether Ursan Blessing is an overpowered skill or not, but I'm here to state that there are existing problems in the game, and solutions are needed.

[Skuld]

Eternal Grove only needs 2 people, really, stick a MM hero on each side and get a decent monk hero and somehting else.

[DivineEnvoy]

Originally Posted by Skuld

Eternal Grove only needs 2 people, really, stick a MM hero on each side and get a decent monk hero and somehting else.

Not entirely true. It is possible to do it with only two people, but it'll be very hard. It's not as simple as just grabbing random professions. Each side needs a warrior, a monk, a MM and an extra. The extra has a task to perform a great damage over time. Heroes have bad coordinations when comes to perform such tasks, and therefore, human is always preferred. As for hero monks, they are very unlikely to heal the tree singers, and thus a greater chance for tree singers to die before the mission completion. Like many other Hard Mode farmers, we are aiming for the master reward, not just a standard mission completion.

[Marcus Ferret]

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

True, learning the game mechanics is a mandatory task to play the game efficiently. However, the point only remains clear before the introduction of Hard Mode. As many people have said, Hard Mode is supposed to be a part of the game that is supposed to be challenging, and thus skills will be required, but the current situation is different. I am 10/13 on the title track, Guardian of Cantha; I waited with a friend from 8 am in the morning to 3 am after midnight to find more players to do the mission with, but after a few days, I gave up, because we can't find anyone. Now then, many players would argue that the option of heroes and henches is available; nevertheless, when it comes to a mission such as Eternal Grove, a full human team is required. The matter of an area that is supposed to be challenging is not longer a matter of skill, but a matter of luck: to meet another player who has the patience and interest in Hard Mode.

It is true that we all go through a series of tutorial passages, like education, a place where we gain the skills we need for the future. However, my point is, are the skills available from these tutorials really enough? It is for some, but not for others. As more and more so-called experienced players who are interested in Hard Mode have completed their Hard Mode tasks, the number of participants to Hard Mode has met a decline. Like politicians always say, children are the future working class, it is the same for this game, and we need to have a constant number of players going into Hard Mode. Ursan Blessing, in this case, may be a solution to that. However, as many people claimed, it is a negative influence. If Ursan Blessing has to be nerfed, is it possible for us to find another solution to fix the decline number of players in Hard Mode?

If Pve-only skills are the solution to the unavailability of players in Hard Mode, yes, this is what most of us want. However, if this solution has to be taken away from us, and no additional solutions will be provided, then I will be against that idea. I'm not here to argue whether Ursan Blessing is an overpowered skill or not, but I'm here to state that there are existing problems in the game, and solutions are needed.

As I mentioned previously, I understand your dilemma… Eternal Grove is a tough mission in Hard Mode if one doesn’t go in with the right build and strategy. Furthermore, most casual players who have completed it once will avoid it like the plague (well, understandable as it is infested with Afflicteds…). I waited three weeks before I managed to get some help in achieving Masters for the mission (and eventually Legendary Guardian), and I come from an Alliance with close to 100 members. While I waited, I would constantly spam Alliance Chat or attempt it with heroes and henchmen. Like I said before, I did get Standard while H+Hing the mission but it is still considered a failure as only Masters adds to the Guardian title track. However, I never stopped trying on my own for the simple reason that ANet had provided that Hard Mode would still be H+Hable for those who wanted to attempt such feats.

When GW:EN previewed, I looked through the perks that came with the game and realised that I could possibly Master Eternal Grove with H+H by using consumables that were available as well as possibly utilise one or two PvE skills to boost my chances of success. This I did, I got hold of a Grail of Might, equipped TNTF on my warrior’s bar and proceeded to attempt the mission – note: by this time I was very knowledgeable of the spawns. I beat the mission once again but still failed as I only managed to achieve Expert. So, back to the drawing board I went…

Let’s see, monsters in Hard Mode have higher levels and 33-50% faster movement, attack speed and casting. “OMG!!! ANet cheats!!!”, you say. Well it’s true to some extent that boosting monster AI is a form of cheating, but ANet has also provided means by which we may balance the inequalities. Consumables such as Essence of Celerity, Armor of Salvation and Grail of Might which were introduced with the launch of GW:EN allow players to face monsters in Hard Mode on a level playing field. Thus, my next experiment… Armed with one of each, I set off towards EG again. Alas, it did not happen as planned for a friend and once Alliance member (someone I consider to be my mentor both in PvE and PvP), whispered and asked me what I was up to. “Errr… Eternal Grove Hard Mode as usual…”, I replied. “Great! I’ll help as I need it on my warrior, and Mish is coming with his monk too!”, came Robus’ reply. <W00T> I whispered DA who had just hopped online and we were set to go… Two warriors with two player monk, one of each on either side with a SS and MM heroes in tow and the rest is history. Eternal Grove Hard Mode had been completed, I had my Legendary Guardian title, and the consumables could be saved for a rainy day.

“So, what has the history lesson above have to do with your situation?”, you may ask.

As I understand it correctly, we both shared one similar experience, i.e. waiting for days in order to find players who would be willing to help in a Hard Mode mission. Most of the members in the Alliance I was in had already done Eternal Grove in Hard Mode by the time I returned from a one month vacation, and for some strange reason, most seem to develop an allergy to the mention of Eternal Grove in Hard Mode. I did on occasions manage to get a few members to form a team for the mission, but as I mentioned above, it is a tough mission which requires the right build and strategy.

Right Build and Strategy: With a team of experienced and knowledgeable players, any build would work for the mission, as long as there is adequate heal, defense and DPS to counter the waves of afflicted. However, let’s stick to the basic info provided by GWWiki and run what's proposed – one MM on each side. Add two monks with prots and party wide healing – LoD, or better yet HB-HP monks would probably work better after the latest skill update, and that’s four… Add a couple of melees and that’s 6. Throw in 2 SS Necros (or an Ineptitude Mesmer, Trapper Ranger, MS Ele, Rit-Splinter Ranger, etc.) and that makes 8. “Perfect team to take on wave after wave of steroid-induced Afflicteds.”, one says. Wrong. It’s hard enough finding Guild or Alliance members to run some of these professions, much less in PuGs. “So, what’s the other option?” Heroes, of course.

As has been mentioned by Skuld above, Eternal Grove Hard Mode can be mastered with just two players and heroes split equally and camped on either side of the grove – note: avoid stepping outside of the gates. However, positioning is key here and keeping an eye on the tree singers health bars is priority. The initial waves of Luxons pose very little threat to your party or the tree singers as long as you can engage and dispatch of them quickly. Thus, the use of a melee as well as a SS character. Bombardments from the turtles however are a cause for concern. One solution would be to flag a hero close to (but behind) the gates in order to draw fire from the turtles. As I play melee, I tend to use myself, or the SS for this position, while my hero monk is set further back, on the verge of the green of the middle tree. I also tend to flag the MM and his minions within range of Danika’s healing thus drawing her out for support. The same positioning works for the opposite side if you have player assistance. In between waves of Luxons, there is adequate time to move the Juggernauts into blocking positions at the gates – preferably two on the side where the warrior boss, Afflicted Maaka, shows.

At the end of the Luxon waves, killing the last turtle will trigger the cutscene for the next part of the mission. Some turtles will remain hostile when the cutscene ends, but others (3 iirc) as well as their ranger guards will become friendly and join in your battle against the Afflicted. Ignore the hostile turtles as they will soon be killed by either the Afflicteds or the allied Luxons. These hostile and allied Luxon rangers and turtles are great at stalling some of the Afflicted thus reducing the number of those that do make it up the stairs. This will thus allow players to reorganise their defenses if necessary, as well as grab Juggernauts from the spawn area in case one or two might have fallen in battle.

Some consider the Afflicted Maaka a nightmare. He is, if not dealt with quickly. Block him and call target as soon as he shows, and finish him off as quickly as possible as he tends to go straight for the tree singers once he breaks the line of defense. If you are able to bring Maaka and most of his cronies down, your chances of achieving Masters would have increased from 50% to 75%. Note: The waves on the opposite side can be dispatched off more quickly, thus if all seems well and Mhenlo is still alive, flag one or two heroes to help defeat Maaka. However, remember to pull them back when the job gets done as the next wave of Afflicted is almost as large even though there is no boss. When this wave has been dealt with, you are 90% to completion. Now, just hang back and wait for the final two bosses to show, while keeping an eye out for the 2 sneaky Afflicted warrior.

Eternal Grove is a mission with a lot of friendly NPCs. Most players believe that as long as all 12 tree singers remain healthy, things will be fine. I, on the other hand believe that if one is able to keep the NPC monks (e.g. Mhenlo, Danika, etc.) alive as well, things will be so much easier. Thus, if there are player monks in the team, the mission provides great challenge and practice in keeping NPCs alive.

Now, I’ve strayed off-topic long enough so let’s see if I can find the right path back to our initial discussion on UB.

UB provides a solution for Hard Mode missions as there are not enough players venturing into Hard Mode, and those that have, probably don’t want to do it again. I’ll agree with the first part, and as a matter of fact, I’ve been thinking about trying UB with H+H at Eternal Grove Hard Mode one of these days when I have the time. However, the impression that players who have completed their Hard Mode tasks and are unlikely to do them again is in my opinion, pretty inaccurate. I enjoy the challenges provided by Hard Mode and will offer to help friends, guilds and alliance members with such tasks if I am not doing anything else. This offer of assistance can extend to PuGs and strangers too, but once again, if I am not doing anything of my own or with guild mates. However, there is one requirement, that everyone actually works together and has some knowledge of the task at hand and not expect to be carried through the mission or task on the strength of a few players. I do not rage if a mission is not 100% successful during the first few attempts as even friends have to adapt to each other’s play style, so what more with strangers and guildies who have never or hardly teamed up before. This, in my opinion, is where the great divide between experienced and inexperienced players occur. Players who enjoy challenges generally work towards beating Hard Mode areas. Every failure is taken as a lesson and the team goes into discussions on builds, positioning, strategy, etc. in order to work out a better way of dealing with the problems faced. A kind of bond begins to form between such players and as they progress from area to area, the knowledge and strength of the team increases due to the learning experiences that is shared. Such close friendships or bonding can be viewed by some to be a form of elitism. However, it is not so. The knowledge gained is passed on to friends and other guild or alliance members who play at different times or are not regularly online. These friends, etc. will hopefully have friends of their own whom they can pass on the knowledge to or otherwise, I don’t really know why they are playing a multi-player online game. It is a kind of pay it forward concept with some experienced players even taking the time to do write-ups and contribute to discussions on open forums.

However, as you have pointed out in your previous post, there is not much anyone can do about individual players. Both experienced and casual players can have selfish tendencies. I use the term ‘selfish’ loosely as there may be factors for such behaviour which we are unaware of (e.g. lack of time to play thus the need to keep to oneself, language barrier, shyness and inability to lead, insecurity, etc.) Anyway, as I have mentioned above, I am willing to help others as well as pass on whatever knowledge I may have learned from my mentors even though I still consider myself an average player at best. I believe Trub has and hopefully still does the same too, as do some of the other regular posters on these forums. This game is all about making friends is a social playing environment, so expand your friends list, add my IGN if you wish and give a shout if you need assistance or just a chat on builds, etc. I can’t guarantee 100% success with whatever I assist with, but I’m wiling to take challenges and work towards that 100%. However, if some players feel that spamming LF UB-team makes gaming so much easier then by all means, go ahead and run it. It sure saves a lot of space on the build directory, and from some of the 'constructive' posts I’ve seen on this thread, it's probably a good thing as well.

Finally, I shall respond to your third paragraph a little later as you are the first to have given a direct answer to the question which I have asked on two of my previous posts. For now, I need to get back to sand-papering the stairs as well as read up on some of the later posts on this thread when I get home…

[Skuld]

Well, I did it with a friend in HM and obtained masters. Half the time I was sitting around waiting for stuff to spawn.

[DivineEnvoy]

Originally Posted by Marcus Ferret

Hmmm, I can understand your dilemma and although my response will probably stray off topic, I will do my best to provide one tomorrow here in this post (as I need to get some sleep first due to an early day), and maybe even in-game. Mind you, I am more reckless than experienced where style of gaming is concerned although I have managed to complete Eternal Grove Hard Mode solo with heroes and henchies - only got Standard though and later, Expert with the use of a Grail of Might during GW:EN's preview weekend. It was only with the assistance of great friends and guildies that I managed to get Masters for the mission and finally, Legendary Guardian (<3 Robus, DA & Mish). I'm not boasting, just shows how crazily bored and persistent I can get sometimes when there's no one online to help which is why like I said, I can understand your current situation...

Thanks for understanding. I'll be waiting for your response in the morning.

Originally Posted by Skuld

Well, I did it with a friend in HM and obtained masters. Half the time I was sitting around waiting for stuff to spawn.

That's rather irrelevant now. My friend waited five days longer than me, and he managed to get it done with seven real people. People on my buddy list or my guild are either uninterested in Hard Mode or not ready to play Hard Mode. More importantly, my memory of Eternal Grove is blurry now, and I wouldn't want to trouble anyone to go through a few painful hours with me. Despite the fact that the game is supposed to be fun, it's certainly painful to give up on a certain title track when you are at 10/13. My point is, if changes can be made, I don't want other people to share the same painful experience.

[Crom The Pale]

One of the complaints about ursan here has been that it will somehow affect the learning curve of players.

I would suggest that by the time anyone has attained UB they have probably learned all they will about GW.

Not counting people that pay for power leveling, most people will have completed at least 3-5 missions by the time they reach lvl 20.

While some might think that players are jumping into GWEN the instant they hit lvl 20, grabbing UB, and rushing off to do UW or DoA I find it more likely these people had already completed at least one if not all campains long before they aquired UB.

What I see in places like UW and DoA is now two groups where there was only one before GWEN.

One group, the group that has always been in these locations with guild members or pugs that know what they are doing and are happy with the old accepted builds.

Second group are people using UB. Some of these people have never completed UW or DoA before, though I would bet they all have tried and failed in the past, and the rest have completed it but choose to use UB and consumables to speed up the process.

I see UB as a choice, like any other build in GW. My warrior has almost 50 templates and only one has UB on it. I change all the time, partly to avoid boredom and partly because there are skills that work better for me depending on where I am and what I am doing.

Up until the most recent update I was able to deal far more dmg with cyclone axe + splinter weapon than UB will ever do. Even after the update it is still a very powerfull combo. Whrilwind + Aftershock is still a favourite combo on my adren war.


Anet has just added one more choice for us all to make, and in making that choice we will decide what type of game we wish to play and how we wish to play it. You can not chose how other people will play the game and should not try to.

[unienaule]

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

I would suggest that by the time anyone has attained UB they have probably learned all they will about GW.

Are you red engined serious? I'm pretty sure I learn something new in Guild Wars every time I play, and I've put in 2500 hours. If somebody doesn't care enough to learn how to play better, they should be given god-mode on a fracking silver platter? No.

[AuraofMana]

If you don't like it, don't use it. As simple as that.
Here's a comparison:

55 - Spam a few skills, stay alive, win.
Ursan - Spam a few skills, stay alive, win.

Sure, 55 is a bit more dangerous, but look how fast you farm a fat mob. I don't see anyone complaining about 55 being too easy.